Had a quick glance at the forums for the so called "players" of WoW Glider. There was all sorts of sympathy for the owner of the site and they just couldn't fathom how Blizzard had the nerve to demand the revenue he has had from selling the program in the first place!

Funniest thing though, is that they're quite the worried about Blizzard actually winning the case and getting through with one of their claims, namely to gain ownership of the business, thus getting access to all the logs, receipts and so forth. Haha, can't wait to see the flow of bans following their comparison of cc numbers!

It's a bad thing to gloat, but... well, sometimes I just can't help myself.

They may be able to get the data without even going to trial...Discovery rules may permit it...If the judge gives it to them and doesn't restrict its use....

Oh well...ROFL

This is just precious. Can't wait to watch the events unfold...

Lol, nice, this just made my day :)

why do you have to mention the name of the bot on the main site? this might attract even more people to it, or similar programs.
so please remove the name!

The number of times I've heard, seen, or read something, written by an individual who claims that Blizzard does *nothing* to stop Bots (and therefore it is OK), I have to wonder.... what exactly are they smoking?

QFT! :D

Like above poster, I know gloating = bad karma, but this news is worth getting some of it! Hope Blizzard nails these guys and all the damn lazy cheaters who used their program.

Its in the lawsuit, in publically filed records available on the internet...

whats the program do again?

Seems like an automated bot that makes your character kill **** when you're not around. Really only for lazy ass-es.

I'm gonna really enjoy the aftermath of this. I'm sure we've all encountered Level 60's (and now 70's) who were completely clueless of the mechanics of the game and were completely confused over things even the noobiest newb would easily know.

I read through the thread on the glider forums where the filing was posted... it's almost as if people who use WoW Glider are having their IQs lowered by doing so...

The "strongest" argument I read on there was that Blizzard didn't own the WoW trademark. Now, Blizzard is a company. A wealthy company, with an even larger, more wealthy company's money riding on WoW as well... Don't you think these companies would hire lawyers who MAY put in the filing the sort of legal doodad that reads: "World of Warcraft hereinafter referred to as WoW"?

Botting is against the rules, lazy, and a waste of $15 a month. Anyone who disagrees should promptly switch to Runescape and stop dumbing up our game.

Interesting how slashdot itself has a bunch of gold-selling and power-leveling service ads running on their page...

Can't do anything about google ads.

Yes you can. You just tell google that gold selling etc. ads are unacceptable to you and they provide others.

It will mean a drop in revenue, but Curse have now done this for example:


Ads by Google
Ventrilo and TeamSpeak

$3 for 12-slots $5 for 24-slots London, Virginia, San Jose, Chicago

www.*******.com
Advertise on this site


DM

Small clarification. It was actually the company selling the Glider program that filed versus Blizzard first (hence why Blizzard is actually "the defendant"). What Blizzard has now done in reply to the complaint is to also launch their own countreclaims.

The original law suit by the sellers of glider basically wanted the court to declair that their program did not infringe on any copyright (or other rights) of Blizzard and to prevent Blizzard from further such charges (plus the costs for attorneys, damage and so on).

Blizzard has now basically made the following seven counterclaims:

Tortious Interferance with Contracts
Basically they say that the company are interfering with the contract between Blizzard and their players

Contributory Copyright Infringement
I don't really understand how they get to this but they claim that by using the Glider, any copy of the game itself created by playing it is an infringing one. I don't know how the Glider program works but I don't see how any copies of the game would differ from the ones done while playing normally.

Vicarious Copyright Infringment
Here they claim that users of the glider program directly infringe the copyright of Blizzard (not stated how) and since they sell software keys to their glider program (and makes money out of it) which they can revoke, they control the use and thus there is infringement.

Violation of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA)
Here they claim that their Warden program protects and prevents the making of unauthorized copies of the game in some way, and also the access to the game. The claim Glider is specifically designed to circumvent Warden and thus violate the DMCA. They don't state however how it would allow someone not authorized to access the gaming world can do so with Glider as far as I can see, nor how it would help in creating copies of the game.

Trademark Infringement
Here they are making claims on the WoW mark (not trademark as people at many other sites as mentioned in this thread comment on) and their game. They claim that the inclusion of WoW as part of the program and site is an infringement since it can cause a confusion among consumers of Blizzard.

Unfair Competition
I am not at all familiar with these laws which are basically the Arizona state kaws regarding unfair competition. They claim that the companie's (the one selling Glider) actions of selling the program is bussiness conduct that is contrary to honest practice in commercial matters. I can't tell more since that is basically all they say and I have no idea what that Arizona law says.

Unjust Enrichment
Basically they say that Glider aalters the balance of the game and damage Blizzard's reputation with players dissatisfied with the result (cheating) and that it also deprives Blizzard of a monthly membership revenue by allowing users to progress more quickly through the game than others. They also claim that Glider is sold with the knowledge that their users could violate the agreements with Blizzard.


That is basically their claims although I have compressed the claims quite a bit. The information is taken directly from the legal documents filed by Blizzard and the company selling Glider. I won't judge on the merits of them or the content but let the courts sort it out.

It goes against the ToU/EULA that Blizzard has, which is a contractual agreement between Blizzard and the customers. As the wowglider software is a violation of the ToU/EULA when used in conjunction with WoW in any way, shape, or form, it does in fact interferes with the contractual agreement that the customers accept to play the game.

Simple -- the protocols and communication system used by the WoW client & servers are in fact copyrighted. Wowglider interrupts, intercepts, and processes, at some level, this communication -- either between the server & client, or the client & computer the client is running on. That infringes on Blizzard's copyright on their software.

I'm not completely familiar with the wowglider software, however it most likely does one of two things - it intercepts transmits packets through the client/server communication layer, or it intercepts/processes the communication between the client & hardware. Both of those ar intercepting/processing copyrighted protocols that Blizzard has the full rights to -- therefore, it is a rather straight-forward copyright infringement. For the record, the ToU and EULA also clearly state that Blizzard owns the rights to all of the protocols used by WoW.

If wowglider intercepts and processes data packets/transmissions between the client & server, it effectively, under this definition, becomes a secondary "client" to communicate to the server. As such, it becomes an "unauthorized copy" of the client communication software -- or in layman's terms, unauthorized copy of the game. Wowglider interferes with the normal operations of the game.

This is a pretty standard, and straight-forward claim. Regularly upheld in legal proceedings.

Basically, Blizzard made WoW. Blizzard owns the rights to WoW, and WoW's protocols, plus the interface to communicate to WoW. the makers of wowglider, by selling their product that interacts with the client in some external, third-party way, effectively become competition to what Blizzard's intentions with WoW are. Therefore, the law basically is an effort to make wowglider stop.

Well, it does alter the balance of the game, it does basically everything this claims it does. Including that it is sold with the knowledge that their users do violate the agreements with Blizzard.


Basically, all of those claims are interconnected. They very clearly, and expressively state that wowglider is against Blizzard's copyrights, license agreements, and even their trademark (or, as you put it, their mark, ie: WoW). This is a very strong stance that Blizzard has taken with this, and the wowglider developers really don't have a leg to stand on to fight against all of this. It is what would be defined as legal overkill. Dump everything on the offender and bury them in so many legitimate charges that they can't stand against the weight of it all.

/agreed

I didn't even know this existed until I read this article. By doing so, I've already gone to the site, read up on the info for Glider, and if I were a lazy bastard probably woulda bought it. But why would I want the prog to play for me? As someone else said, it's a waste of money at that point.

All this article did was become a HUGE advertisement for the program, and I'm certain a lot of sales were made after this article was produced, thanks to the "kindness" of a mod site directing them their way. Not flaming Rush for it, just think it wasn't thought through very well.

I'd recommend removing this thread altogether in order to stop being a now FREE advertisement for this retarded program.

I agree... I knew that this type of program existed but I'd never really felt a need to find one, through this article I now have the name / website of the program. The presence of the article on the main page of worldofwar.net is a huge advert for the program and is completely counter productive to what I believe the intentions of posting article was.

nevermind this post

Well, someone who grinds their way to the level cap can be just as clueless as someone who bought their account on ebay. You can be utterly without any ability to play after putting in weeks of mindless effort. Sad but true- the clue vacuum won't vanish overnight, there will always be the grinders.

I did enjoy seeing members of the guild "Bought on EBay" on one of my servers though, always gave me a chuckle.

Bit of an assumption as the glider program is installed on the users computer and interacts with informatin being sent volutarily by blizzard to the user. Not sure how courts will rule on this but i don't think it is that cut and dry, that one can say the glider ppl don't have a leg to stand on.

And while Blizzard my own the software and chars they don't own the means of communication as last time i checked it was using TCP/IP which cannot be owned by Blizzard.

Interesting quote i found.

"In letting you run your avatar on autopilot, WoW Glider is a tool helpful for farming gold and building experience. It works without any hacks, simply automating the same mouse clicks and keyboard inputs that you would do there. Does it nullify the ultimate point of experiencing the game? Yes. Does it assist cheaters? Absolutely. Is it wrong to create and sell a product that helps cheating? That remains to be seen."

They don't own TCP/IP, but they do own the protocols used over the TCP/IP layer to communicate between client & server. As in, which packets to what when received on either end. Network layers can get... complicated.

It is macroing/automating/botting. Which is still against the Blizzard ToU/EULA (bear in mind, people with the advanced Logitech keyboards that are able to be macro-programmable, have been banned for making automation macros in the keyboard and using them as well). And Blizzard does hold the rights to WoW -- including the rights to how a mouse and keyboard communicate with the client (believe it or not) -- intercepting/overriding this falls into the category of a third-party cheating tool, and will get nailed in court.

Agreed but since the program isn't affecting the layer but simply communicating with it i don't think it will be considered illegal.



Again agreed and Blizzard has the right to ban those ppl, but just as in the case with logitech, they didn't sue logitech i don't think they have a case against Glider for creating a software that allows user to circumvent the ToU/EULA. Can't hold glider responsible for what ppl use the application for.


This is where it gets hazy, the way a mouse communicates to my computer is definaltly not owned by Blizzard. How my computer communicates to Blizzard also not owned, hence i can buy a trackball without notifying blizzard. Once the information is sent out of my computer then the packet is owned by blizzard not before, this is why i think this case isn't that cut and dry. Where in the process does glider intercept? If it is prior to WoW sending info to Blizzard then i think Blizzard is out of luck, in other words intercepts packet btw mouse and WoW game is fair. On the other hand intercepting packet once WoW game has sent on to Blizzard server could definatly be considered illegal or copyright infringement. Either way will be interesting to see how the courts rule in this matter.

It violates Blizzard's rights to the communication. By intercepting the packets and identifying them (packet sniffing) that is a direct violation of the ToU/EULA for WoW. Inserting your own packets into the communication layer is effectively a hack, and interferes with normal operations, which once again, violates the ToU/EULA.

They can if it is shown that the entire purpose of the software was to violate the EULA/ToU -- which wowglider defines their own product as. The problem with suing Logitech is that the macro keyboards aren't designed explicitly to cheat in WoW. Wowglider's software is effectively in direct competition with Blizzard's, and thus the Arizona law for "unfair competition" comes into play.

How your mouse communicates to your computer isn't owned by Blizzard. How the mouse interaction affects Blizzard's software *is* something that they hold the rights over. Blizzard defined what is and isn't appropriate use of this with their software, as defined in the ToU/EULA, which strictly forbids third-party software from interfering with their product. Wowglider, once again, is designed to circumvent the mouse/keyboard operations to automate the system and define a way to program characters to automatically accomplish certain in-game goals. Yet again, Blizzard is not on iffy or questionable legal footing to countersue like they are doing. Wowglider is infringing on Blizzard's copyrights, once again, it is pretty cut and dry.

No doubt that it is a violation of the ToU/EULA but i'm not sure that helping someone violate that is considered illegal. Your assuming that the software is inserting packets into the communication layer, it might simply be sitting on top of WoW and send int WoW software a signal telling it a mouse click occured when none happend. In this case no hack, and no interfering with the normal operations, ergo no illegal action. I don't know how glider works but your assuming that it is hacking the network packets to send its info. That isn't the only way to accomplish the goal.



Not sure about this since im not from AZ, but i don't think this is necessarly true. The same argument was made about VCR and that didn't win, same argument was made about radar detectors, and again lawsuit didn't win. I don't think the case is as cut and dry as you would like it to be.


How my mouse interracts is not something they own the writes too. Anymore than they own the rights to how my keyboard interacts with their server. If i have a keyboard that will allow me to create macros that will change the behaviour of its interaction with blizzard(aka logitech), guess what Blizzard gets no say in this except to ban me if the find out. The don't get to sue the creator of the keyboard for changin the way it interacts with their server. This glider programs sounds like it does just that, it is a glorified keyboard and mouse that simply emulates the commands they issue. No hacking into packets or violating Blizzard copywrites seems to be involved. So again I say this isn't as cut and dry as you would like it to be.

First off -- I am not even beginning to claim that this is the way they do things. I originally stated that if they did things this way, they'd get busted. So before going off further on this, remember that it was a very hypothetical statement to start.

Second, IF they did it by either intercepting or transmitting packets in the communication layer, then my statement stands.

VCRs were shown to not have been designed with the explicit purpose in mind to steal movies (Fair Use Laws). Radar Detectors were shown to not have been designed with the explicit purpose of avoiding tickets (as well as pointing to the Open Air Act). Wowglider was designed explicitly to be a third-party tool that violates the WoW EULA/ToU -- the developers of it even state it as such. So, your analogies aren't very good. Wowglider was made with the explicit purpose to violate Blizzard's policies, and is sold to customers to provide a means for them to cheat in the game. As such, the developers of wowglider are directly competing against the Blizzard EULA/ToU. This does fall into an "unfair competition" condition. AZ isn't the only state with that particular kind of law (if I am interpreting what the law means correctly).

How your mouse interracts with your computer is not something Blizzard owns the rights to. Nor do they own the rights to how your keyboard interracts with your computer. What they do own the rights to, is what those signals do to their software in particular, and what is acceptable, or in this case, unacceptable forms of input. They have very, very clearly defined that third-party software is a violation of their EULA/ToU, and anyone who makes said third-party software are infringing on the rights Blizzard does have with regards to their particular product.

Doubtful, very doubtful.

The point is that Blizzard don't want automation, this they have engineered by modifiying over time the lua coding language that thrid party modders use to creat mods like CT raid and the like. Will Blizzard say that any third party software that is created to interfere with or interact with any part of their software deemed illegal according to their TOC??

Doubtful, as if they do they will have to put an end to ALL mods.... that is a can of worms that they will not and cannot open, as they aim all of their instances at higher levels at the various raiding guild, pve guilds and PUG that use their software.

As for the protocol's, you guy's need to understand the difference between 'Protocol' & 'Data' & Ownership of information.

• Blizzard own the software, i use it under license.
• Blizzard DO NOT own TCP/IP
• Blizzards software uses elements of TCP/IP for data transcieving
• Blizzard DO NOT own the packets from their software travelling accross my own network.
• Blizzard Do NOT own packets of information going accross my ISP's network, my ISP does.
• Blizzard DO NOT own any packets of information outside of their own network.

In short, blizzard own their software, their network. Thats it, they don't own anything else. Will they infact now say the 'STATEFUL INSPECTION of packets by a firewall means that the firewall is intercepting their data?? How about NAT'ing?? ( those of you in IT know what i mean ) The blizzard data from the client software travels through a network to a router which will then 'wrap' it / Encapsulate it if you like with IP information, thus altering the PACKET! does thie mean tha Blizzard will now say that ALL ISP's that do this on their own networks will also be filed against?? No. They won't, but if they try to force the issue against WoWGlider, this is the arguement they will use, technically it is indisputable.

However, there are a thousand ways to interpret data laws of various countries, yet when called to account on this, will Blizzard then disclose the details of a element of their own software installed on your machines that actively scans your memory, hard drives and running processes???

NOT a chance. The are hypocrits to the max. Tthey won't win, they won't stand a snowballs chance in hell of wining. Except.. they will win as they have more money to throw at the problem. And thats a case of the big guy hitting the little guy becasue no one can touch a wealthy big guy.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

You are quite hilarious...

they won't win...(your words...)

They will win....(your words)

So, you basically cover both sides of the street because you really have no idea.

Yes :P
cos as i stated... they have the most money...and as such they would win.

If both blizzard and wowglider were on equal terms... they wouldn't win.

so i am right in both senses :P

You seem to be missing something very important that Xlorep has pointed out numerous times, and it has nothing to do with ownership of packets or TCP/IP.

As Blizzard has Copyright/Trademark ownership of the WoW software, they have the right to determine how it is used and/or what is or is not an invalid use of their Copyright/Trademark. Thus the ToS and EULA that you're required to agree to upon installing the game and every time you patch up to the newest version of the software.

Since WoWglider's developers said themselves that their program violates the ToS/EULA and was written to do so, they screwed themselves out of winning this legal battle before the first piece of paperwork ever got to the courts.

Nah...You merely refuse to take a position.....

lol maybe :P
i just like to keep all options open

Rather than argue the point myself, I'll let Blizzard's policies speak for me.

Actually, right after the section I quoted, there is:

Which totally contradicts your statement.

Ok, let's do that.

Now, for further understanding what this means, I refer to the ISO OSI Model:

I added emphasis to make my point. TCP and IP are different layers in the OSI model than the Application layer (which is what WoW's server/client communication protocol falls under). Your little "Blizzard does not own TCP/IP" is not only irrelevant, but shows a significant amount of ignorance with regards to network technology in general. Blizzard's server-client protocol would be Layer 5, while the WoW client itself is Layer 7; TCP is Layer 4, and IP is Layer 3. Finally, I will go back to the Blizzard ToU to finish this off:

Which totally shoots holes through your entire argument. Your entire argument was to define that TCP/IP was "the protocol" that I was referring to, when I was referring to the higher-end protocol that communicates between WoW's server & client -- the same data pathway that Blizzard strongly states, in rather clear English, that it is a violation of the ToU/EULA to do anything with.

At the end of that particular page I reference from Blizzard, is this:

Precisely my point.

I think your missing the point, that while it does allow users to violate the ToS/EULA, which is basically cheating. It is not yet illegal to cheat in this country. Granted it probably is imoral by some standards, but illegal, not so much.


I agree with you that Blizzard has every to supendend or ban the person that uses said program. But that isn't the question at hand which you seem to try to circumvent. The question at hand is wether Blizzard is legally in their rights to stop not the user(which we both already agree they can) but the person creating the application that allows them to do so. Explicitly creating a program that allows cheating isn't illegal in this country.

I think you are missing the point, WoWglider initiated this legal battle, Blizzard is simply countersuing as a response to what WoWglider was doing. Blizzard's countersuit is pretty cut and dry, and WoWglider doesn't have a leg to stand on. Basically, because WoWglider initiated all of this, Blizzard's throwing the proverbial book at them. We're not talking about criminal law here, but civil law -- and as such, Blizzard's contract (the ToU/EULA) does hold legal precedence for Blizzard's claims. It is these nitpicky little details that makes software developments like Wine (which provides an API like the Microsoft Windows API for non-windows OSes, like Linux), or Samba (which provides the SMB file sharing protocol that Microsoft uses in Windows to non-Windows OSes, like Linux) have to be developed in a "clean room environment". WoWglider wasn't developed along those lines (their own development team has plainly stated this), and therefore is very much open for legal troubles.

Blizzard has taken legal actions like this before, with the Freecraft (now called Stratagus) project. Of course, the difference with that was that the Freecraft project was designed to be able to read from the Warcraft II and Starcraft data files, and more or less reproduce the actual program/client (originally in a platform Blizzard didn't intend Warcraft II or Starcraft for -- Linux). Now Blizzard only provided a "Cease & Desist" letter to the Freecraft project, rather than a lawsuit. But then again, the Freecraft developers weren't suing Blizzard to start with.

First WoWGlider only sued when Blizzard sent a legal team to the house of the developer and threatend them if they didn't shut down their site and stop selling the glider program.

Second the ToS/EULA is only valid between the User(you and me) and Blizzard. WoWGlider didn't agree to the ToS and ergo is not bound to its aggreement. You and I are bound to the aggreement we made since we agreed when we started to play. On the other hand since WoWGlider never agreed to the ToS they are not bound to its restrictions or actions as we are. The only leg that Blizzard has to stand on is regarding banning the users which use the program.

Thirdly, I don't have a thirdly but i figured have a first and second without a third wouldn't work.

Actually, the leg they have to stand on, is declared in their countersuit. Copyright infringement, trademark violation, unfair competition, and that it interferes with the contract between Blizzard that the WoW players. Plenty of ground to stand on there.

It depends on what you consider cheating. If your definition of cheating merely covers rules for games and entertainment, then it's not illegal. But if I break the speed limit to get home from work quicker, that is illegal. I broke the rules of the road. If I take $500 from the Monopoly bank while the banker is on a bathroom break, not illegal. If I take $500 dollars from under a friend's mattress, that is illegal. Of course, now I'm just rambling and playing a better game of semantics than you are.

EDITed out first part...obvious reasons.

If they were actually valid complaints and not simply puffed up charges you may be right. But in this case, and in my opinion they are, and your not.

Very true, and since this program is basically help you steal gold for an online GAME!!!! I would say this falls under the category of stealing $500 from the monopoly bank.

Now you're getting back into the semantics game. Stealing is stealing, whether it's online or not, whether it's a game or not. Especially in a case where fair players are paying the same amount as cheaters for a subscription to a product.

There may not be laws against stealing virtual property yet, but that fact doesn't make it any more or less a case of theft. If you're circumventing the rules (or laws) of any system there will be repercussions. If the system you're abusing has more grey area than rules discerning between appropriate actions and inappropriate actions, then it is only a matter of time before the grey area your soapbox is on gets dug out from under you and dumped into the 'inappropriate' pile.

What are they stealing? From whom? I still don't understand that.....

Blizz didn't ask a DA or anyone else to file any theft charges, so far as I know...So, maybe they aren't stealing?

Sorry, mesonm. I was playing a game of WordPlay Pro with gmedina, and it got off topic. Theft isn't the issue at hand, and now I apologize for using it in my Monopoly analogy.

Its all good, bro.

Just for the record, I was not commenting on the right or wrong of the claims. I was just restating what Blizzard had written in their document they filed. I got the feeling you tried to convince me of the correctness or wrongness of my writing and possible opinions while in fact you basically repeat what I wrote about Blizzard's filing. Sorry if I interpreted you wrong.


However, let me still address some points you make. First of, I advice you to actually read the filing to understand it and what it says more properly since you seems to guess in some places. Secondly, it always help to read up on exactly what copyright actually consists of and what it protects. You seem to assume several rights that in fact does not exist.


No, in general you don't get copyright on those things. However, even if you did, it is not an infringement of copyright to either intercept, read or process them. Copyright applies to the copying and making available to the public. IN this case it is basically just reading them on their own computer.

Again, I am not judging Blizzard's claim here since it is also different from what you write. I am commenting on your writing.


First off, read the files again for the difference between this claim and the previous one. Second, read the "rights" of a copyright holder to a work. Again, pinpoint WHAT the work in question is that you claim infringement on and what infringement you talk about.

Neither intercepting data nor processing it is something covered by copyright (and to be honest, from my understanding is not even how Glider works but I can be wrong on that).

What the EULA/ToU states is completely irrelevant in this aspect, it is what the copyright law states that is important. How one actually protect a protocol under copyright I leave up to you. What is the "work" in question? What does that have to do with the data being sent. Even if you assume every single stream of data (no matter how small), and even imagining it can be assumed a packet of data, created automatically by the program based on your actions, meets the requirements of copyright, feel free to tell what exact "right" of the copyright holder that is violated. Of course, this is nothing Blizzard is stating at all in their filing though so quite irrelevant.


You neither understand how the glider works nor what Blizzard is claiming, right? Glider does not at all communicate with the server for the record. Interfering with a game is in itself not a DMCA violation. Read what Blizzard claims. It is about their Warden protection system and they claim the Glider is bypassing that protection in some way. Namely through launching what they claim is an unauthorized copy of the game and giving access to the game when you should not. Again. I am not commenting on the right or wrong of their claim, just telling about it, it is not about what you say though. Not sure if you try to "prove" their claim or what though.



What do you mean "standard"? What do you mean "regularly upheld"? Under what conditions? What is acceptable? Are you claiming that any trademark claim is generally upheld? Seems strange. Again, I have no idea about the specific claim and mark, but you seem to be an expert, so enlighten us. Again, I have not taken any stance or opinion on the specific claim, I have no clue. I just forwarded that they make a claim to the "WoW" mark. Is it valid? That I leave to the courts to say. Basically the claim Blizzard make is that the use of the "WoW" as a mark would mean no one can use "WoW" even as part of the name of a program, at least not related to their game. For the record, I actually feel they have a good chance on this claim.


What do you mean by "owns"? What "rights"? Why and based on what? They do hold the COPYRIGHT to the game and have trademarks to the name. Other than that? You seems to be an expert, do you know of any patent in question? Were do you get the copyright applies to a protocol and how things communicate? Please tell how that applies to copyright. And further, tell how it applies to the case in question since Glider works in quite a different way than I think you guess.


Since you seem to know the Arizona law in question, perhaps you can quote from it, link to it or explain it. What exactly does it have to any copyright by the way? Are you claiming that the Arizona law says you are not allowed to make a computer program that interacts with another program without permission? Further, how do you compete with "the intensions of Blizzard with WoW"?????? Please tell us more about this law you seem familiar with and how it interact with copyright since that seems to be your basis.

Yes, but could you refer to which law this is based on? Are you claiming that it is illegal to make a program that if anyone use it, it can alter the balance of another game? Do note that this was about "unfair enrichment". It apparently has to do with the fact that they sell their program. Again, you seem to know the law in question quite well, perhaps you can give a good explanation what Blizzard actually mean by the claim and what is illegal here?

Since you seem to be quite knowledgeable by the law and can judge the validity of claims and if they are valid or not (do note that in past cases, Blizzard have tossed out many claims of which in the end, only a few have stood the test and most being drawn back or found not valid. So how do you come to the conclusion these are all valid and correct? You don't even seem to know how Glider works for example. I would be very happy if you can help out and point to actual law, perhaps past cases and specific details of the program and its workings since I have really no idea if any or all claims are good or valid or not. I do know you have misunderstood copyright in part though.






In another post of yours to cut down on posts:

Can you please tell how one "own" a protocol? What do you mean? As in physically owning something? As in holding a patent? As in having it covered by a copyright? (None of the two last one means owning though, just giving certain rights). How does that relate to the issue in question? Do note that simply looking at data transmitted to you, does in no way violate either a patent nor a copyright. So what do you mean? (Disregarding that it is my understanding that Glider does in fact not work in-between the client and the server to look at the data stream anyway).


Based on what? Which law? They hold the copyright to the game. That is it. That doesn't mean you can control how something communicate with your program. There is no such "right". Or if you know of one, please link to the specific law as it would be an interesting US law I am not aware of.



Again, which is this "ownership" you talk about? From which law does it come to? As being non American, can you point to this law that give "ownership" to the creator of any program that allows them to dictate HOW you input, for example key strokes and mouse input? And more specifically, makes the creator of a program that allows such things illegal? Note, we are not talking about the USER of the game here. We are talking about someone making a program that can help a user to input, for example mouse clicks without clicking the mouse.

What "right" do you talk about? Please tell a law.


Lets assume any such term is in fact permissible in a consumer contract. Please tell what it has to do with Glider? It would be an issue between the player and Blizzard. The only claim this could refer to would be that anyone making a program that helps someone else to possible violate a contract is committing an illegal act. Were do you draw the line?


?? The game take input from the Operating system. How is that "circumvented? And what law makes it illegal to change how the operating system in turn gets its input? Am I allowed to press a key with a pencil instead of a finger? Do you claim that to be a "right" of a computer manufacturer in USA? What law covers this. I am genuinely interested in knowing since I have no knowledge about it.


Could you then help to outline exactly what infringement is done (Blizzard is claiming Contributory and Vicarious infringement by the way. Do note that they don't claim the person at charge infringe copyright (the program is not at charge by the way). Also tell exactly what type of infringement is occurring noting that copyright law basically list all the rights under copyright and it has to be one of those specific rights violated and how. The fact that Blizzard claim they occur we all know, but you seems to know the details to judge the claims are valid, so enlighten the rest of us.


You have multiple quotes from Blizzard's polices and such. Do note that they are not laws. They doesn't change the way the law works. Nor does it turn anything illegal. It can be rules by which a player has to follow (assuming laws allow for such terms) but that is basically were it stops. It doesn't turn it illegal for someone ELSE to make a program with which a user could possibly violate Blizzard's pollicies.




Again, I really have very little knowledge about the actual glider program, nor do I have any opinion or view on either the validity of the claims or the goodness/badness of the program itself. I am not arguing for or against any. I just try to sort out what the claims are and what possible laws might underlay them.

I think you are adding more to copyright than there is. Holding the copyright to something does NOT give it as a right to "use" copies of it. A copyright holder has no right at all to tell how something is used. As for the use of the copyright itself, that is quite a non issue here. As for Trademarks, they work quite different from copyright.



Such contracts has very little to do with copyright. You could offer the same type of contract for any other goods or service you sell, regarldess of the invovlement of any copyright. As for what contract terms are valid and which are not in consumer sales, that is pretty much up to individual countries and their law. In this particular case, it would be the US laws of course.

I like to know how blizzard plans to collect moneys earned from wowglider for damages. What money damages was caused here? People still have to pay $15 a month to play.

I am against bots and love to when something is done about them, but this whole thing with blizzard to me seems like its more of a money issue then it is about doing good or whats right for the community of players.

Vivendi being involved should answer some questions.

True but since all laws are semantics that is what we are dealing with here. And as u just admitted stealing virtual property isn't yet illegal no law has been broken. YAY!!!!!!!!!! I win.

It's quite obvious to anyone who has a small inkling of Internet technology... that the technical claims by Blizzard are faulty.

They DO NOT own TCP or IP nor do they own the data stream.
e.g if i ping to log on server to test my internet connection in trying to troubleshoot a logon failure... who owns the icmp packet??? Would they claim ownership of said packet from my PC, through my network, through my firewall, through my ISP's network to their ISP's network to their server?? and of the ACK packet?? would they claim ownership of this ???

In essence.. this is what your arguement is saying, that they own said packet.... which is just plain wrong.

Xlorep DarkHelm, you make a lot of noise, but in general you have little other than empty words to back up blizzard. i'm not making fun of you, im stating just the facts.
Cutting down to shreds my arguements about TCP/IP protocol is really small minded of you as most ADULT people would see it's a generalisation of the whole concept.. an abstract if you will.

Professionals will see what i was getting at, mere "wannabe MCSE's/CCNA's " with no real experience in the world of computing or indeed any formal certs would only be the ones to shoot nano holes in an abstract description. Only when you've worked for many years in the areana can you fully apreciate the complexities of internet law and the technical marvels that underpin what you take for granted when you surf or send mail.

But i wander around the tree of life chasing the stupidity shadow in hopes of shedding light on it...

The point is, blizzard are making a lot of noise, hoping to scare with the big brother tactic, lots of bang, little substance.

The fact that the creator of Wow glider has made software that READ's the ram and then injects commands into the keyboard buffer and mouse buffer does not infringe upon the wow program as it's not being altered. Nor is wow glider communicating with the WoW servers. PPL who think this are the most UNINFORMED and probably the worst beer drinkers int he world :P

Having said all that..... i still maintain that Glider stands a good chance of winning technically... its just that like microsoft, blizzard have a huge war chest.... but the rule of law *usually* wins out.

But wouldnt that be saying Wowglider and botting is 100% legal to use in WOW game?

oh and another thing... i love it when i find a bot... and find it great fun to steal the kills and make the bot work for me.... they pay their monthly dues, i pay my monthly dues and yet that bot is working for someone else.

So blizzard get their money, i get my fun.. alls good and well.... plus i get to crow to my guildies about how i suckered a bot to kill a 63+ for me after i had take a few swipes at it :P

Fair?
NO :)
Fun?
Immensly !!!!

no i wouldn't say it was legal within the boundaries of the WOW TOS....

but then again, i'm not botting.. but i don't mind taking advantage of a few fre kills when i come accros a bot, nor do i mind a few honour points when i kill one either :)